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Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 30 September 2021
Richard Leonard
I will now bring in Colin Beattie, who has a number of questions.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 30 September 2021
Richard Leonard
Thank you. If you come across any useful comparators where there is robust data, we would be interested to see that. I think that that might be a matter of public interest as well as being of interest to the Public Audit Committee.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 30 September 2021
Richard Leonard
Thank you very much indeed for your evidence this morning and for the report, which contains a clear analysis of where things are and what might need to change.
I thank Antony Clark and Nichola Williams, for joining us remotely, and the Auditor General, Stephen Boyle, for being here with us at the committee.
I close the public part of today’s proceedings.
10:53 Meeting continued in private until 11:38.Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 30 September 2021
Richard Leonard
I welcome everybody to the fifth meeting in session 6 of the Public Audit Committee. I remind members and guests that the social distancing rules of Parliament must be adhered to. If you are moving around the committee room, or if you are entering or leaving it, please wear a face covering.
The first agenda item is to decide whether to take items 4 and 5 in private. Do we agree to take those items in private?
Members indicated agreement.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 30 September 2021
Richard Leonard
I am sure that we shall be gentle in our approach to you, in light of that. Joining us remotely are Graeme Logan, who is the director of learning at the Scottish Government, and Gayle Gorman, who is the chief inspector of education at Education Scotland. Willie Coffey, a member of the committee, is also joining us via videolink.
I remind those who are joining us remotely that, because this is a hybrid meeting, it would be helpful if you could enter an R in the chat box function if you want to come in on any of the points. Those who are in the room can simply indicate that to me or to the clerks, and we will take your questions or answers.
I want to afford Joe Griffin the opportunity of making an opening statement before we get into the question session.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 30 September 2021
Richard Leonard
Thank you for that opening statement. We will now turn to questions.
In the previous session of Parliament, a recurring theme and a cause for concern was incomplete and poor-quality data. When we look at the joint Audit Scotland-Accounts Commission report into outcomes for young people in school education, the issue seems to crop up again. The sets of data that are available, which measure outcomes, appear to be incomplete. The expression used by the Auditor General is that
“there is a lack of robust data”.—[Official Report, Public Audit Committee, 9 September 2021; c 4.]
Our first question is this: what are you doing to address that? Are you taking serious action to address it?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 30 September 2021
Richard Leonard
Thank you. We may return to some of those themes before the session finishes, but my final question for now is simply to ask whether you accept all the recommendations in the report.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 30 September 2021
Richard Leonard
Thank you. I will conclude the morning’s session by picking up on that last area of discussion. We cannot pre-empt the cabinet secretary either, but we can reflect on the data in and the recommendations made by the Audit Scotland report earlier this year. One of the things that struck me about its analysis was that it said that, although real-terms spending on education increased by 0.7 per cent between 2013-14 and 2018-19, the increase was not reflected in all councils. In fact, it went on to say that there was a drop in real-terms funding for education in the attainment challenge councils, with the exception of Glasgow City Council. Most people would think that the attainment challenge fund was additional money to help those local authorities that have the biggest challenges in closing the attainment gap. Can you give us an explanation of why that was?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 30 September 2021
Richard Leonard
Thank you. I am sure that if those local authority voices were around the table today, they would say that their settlements have also been reduced in the past 10 years and that that might be one of the reasons why overall spending has not gone up in the predicted way.
Thank you very much indeed for your evidence this morning, Mr Griffin. We very much appreciate the time that you have given up and the information that you have shared with us. I think that there were a couple of points on which you mentioned you might be able to provide us with some further detail, and that would certainly be helpful. We will await the cabinet secretary’s announcement. Will that be before or after the recess?
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 30 September 2021
Richard Leonard
Thank you very much. We will now go back to the agenda.
I thank Stephen Boyle for joining us once again, and we are pleased to welcome by videolink Antony Clark, who is interim director of performance audit and best value at Audit Scotland, and Nichola Williams, who is a senior auditor at Audit Scotland. Once again, Willie Coffey, who is of our own, is joining us by videolink.
I ask the Auditor General to give us a brief introductory statement. We would then like to ask questions about the community justice report.