The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.
All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
All Official Reports of public meetings of committees.
Displaying 3502 contributions
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 2 December 2025
Gillian Martin
The seriousness of the crime puts it above negligence. Again, if it is ecocide, it is not negligent; it is wilful. I come back to the definition in the bill that it has to be wilful or reckless. That is what has to be proved. A wilful act, on the part of an organisation, would suggest telling an employee to do something that would cause severe harm to the environment, but that is the thing that must be proved—that it was wilful or reckless. However, reducing the threshold for what constitutes ecocide is problematic, because, as I have said, we already have law that would deal with that. My understanding is that, as the law stands, it includes vicarious liability. Is that correct?
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 2 December 2025
Gillian Martin
Can I bring in the lawyer?
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 2 December 2025
Gillian Martin
We are just suggesting it. We do not know whether we will go down that route or whether someone else will, but we thought that it was worth airing it.
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 2 December 2025
Gillian Martin
It is about proving it. If I may, I will bring the lawyer in on that.
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 2 December 2025
Gillian Martin
No. I think that vicarious liability is important, for the reasons that I set out to Sarah Boyack, so there must be provision to ensure that the scenario that you have just outlined, where, in effect, you have a fall guy, cannot happen. It cannot be the case that a junior member of an organisation would be prosecuted for something that was actually the intent of the organisation, so there must be vicarious liability provision.
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 2 December 2025
Gillian Martin
Yes, that would be the case if a contractor came in and cut corners without the express direction or knowledge of the contracting organisation. In that case, it would not just be ecocide that it was taken to court for; it would properly also be taken to court by the company that contracted it.
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 2 December 2025
Gillian Martin
It is covered by the vicarious liability provision, whereby someone
“commits the offence of ecocide, acting as the employee or agent of another”.
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 2 December 2025
Gillian Martin
There could be a couple. It is important that the bill includes provision for permitted activities, so I will probably lodge stage 2 amendments to ensure that we allow for such activities. As it stands, the burden of proof is on the defence, which is not in line with the ECHR. I do not think that anyone meant that to be the case, but that could be an unintended consequence. Those are serious deficiencies in the bill as introduced, so I would want to rectify them at stage 2, and I suggest that others might want to do so, too.
I will leave it there. In my response to Ms Lennon, I have set out in a memorandum some of the unintended consequences that there could be as a result of the bill’s current drafting. In my mind, the ones that I have mentioned are the main ones.
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 2 December 2025
Gillian Martin
No. They would be prosecuted under the 2014 act, which does not mention ecocide.
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 2 December 2025
Gillian Martin
Significant environmental harm would have been done, but it could not officially be said that they had been accused of and prosecuted for ecocide. If Ms Lennon’s bill were passed, people could be prosecuted for ecocide, because there would be an offence of ecocide.