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Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
  7. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 3502 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Commencement

Meeting date: 2 December 2025

Gillian Martin

Vicarious liability and holding the organisation responsible has precedent in Scots law. First of all, in a “I was just doing what I was told to do” case, a tremendous penalty could be put on an individual, while the organisation was left to continue without any penalty at all, so it is entirely appropriate that there are provisions in the bill for vicarious liability.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Commencement

Meeting date: 2 December 2025

Gillian Martin

Consent.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Commencement

Meeting date: 2 December 2025

Gillian Martin

You say “proper”, by which you mean that the company is following the direction of the contracting company.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Commencement

Meeting date: 2 December 2025

Gillian Martin

If I may just give a personal opinion, if anyone did not come to work in Scotland because we had an offence of ecocide, what would that say about the company? We want all companies to act responsibly. If environmental law exists to prevent serious harm to the environment, whether under the 2014 act or an ecocide act, what would it say about a company that it would not come to do business somewhere because of that law?

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Commencement

Meeting date: 2 December 2025

Gillian Martin

There would be such a high bar. The big debate that we are having is whether the bill’s provisions are sufficiently additional to those that already exist in Scotland. I would be very wary of a company that said that it would not work in Scotland because we had an ecocide law.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Commencement

Meeting date: 2 December 2025

Gillian Martin

I will bring in David Murdoch, because he is a lawyer.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Commencement

Meeting date: 2 December 2025

Gillian Martin

Section 2(3) departs from the common position and effectively reverses the burden of proof by placing the burden of proving the defence of necessity on an accused person. Careful consideration must be given to whether that reversed burden is compatible with the ECHR article 6 right. We do not think that it is and that is a flaw in the bill.

Under article 6 of the ECHR, to be “presumed innocent” is an aspect of a person’s right to a fair trial. Section 2(3) reverses that, which we feel quite strongly about. Should the bill reach stage 2, we will look to change that.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Commencement

Meeting date: 2 December 2025

Gillian Martin

I might bring in the lawyer to answer that. Scots law adheres to the ECHR. The presumption of innocence means that it is up to the prosecution to prove a person’s guilt, not the other way round.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Commencement

Meeting date: 2 December 2025

Gillian Martin

It is not up to me to decide that. I will be here at stage 2, no matter what, with all my amendments, and I will work with any members who want to work with me on amendments to deal with unintended consequences.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Commencement

Meeting date: 2 December 2025

Gillian Martin

As I said, we already wanted to include in the bill a defence of acting under permit, and we also wanted to make sure that any of the regulatory bodies would be protected when working under licence or permit.

You make a very good point. The committee has received a significant volume of responses, which are comprehensive. We will look at those, and the planning minister will take a view, too.