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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
  7. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 3502 contributions

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Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Commencement

Meeting date: 2 December 2025

Gillian Martin

It is distinct.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Commencement

Meeting date: 2 December 2025

Gillian Martin

Yes, you are absolutely right, Mr Stewart. Even ahead of the submissions by local authorities and permitting authorities, I favoured an amendment to introduce a defence of acting under permit or other authorisation, as exists in relation to the offence that is set out in section 40 of the 2014 act. It would make the bill and the 2014 act compatible, and it would provide that defence.

You are right that NFU Scotland, the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation and a lot of local authorities have mentioned it.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Commencement

Meeting date: 2 December 2025

Gillian Martin

It is important that we recognise that a defence of carrying out a permitted activity is not a licence to commit ecocide. However, acting outwith the terms of the authority could expose someone to prosecution for ecocide.

If the activity is permitted, there are already provisions in the application for the permit and in the decision to give the permit that a person must meet. If someone acts outwith the permit, they are acting outwith the permit. They could be wilfully committing severe environmental damage.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Commencement

Meeting date: 2 December 2025

Gillian Martin

Yes, we do.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Commencement

Meeting date: 2 December 2025

Gillian Martin

Decisions on financing public bodies are taken during the budget process, and I am not going to talk about a budget that has not happened yet. A lot of bodies deal with environmental issues. An investigation of an ecocide event could involve Police Scotland, SEPA, NatureScot or the coastguard. The event could be marine, on land or whatever. It depends on the location and nature of the crime. In the case of a spill at sea, UK bodies could be involved. With an oil spill, non-Government spill response organisations could be involved. It is impossible for me to say what additional resource would be needed for an event that has not happened.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Commencement

Meeting date: 2 December 2025

Gillian Martin

If it has been raised by the bodies that they do not have the resources associated with what is proposed in the bill, we will need to look at that but, again, I say that it is not my bill.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Commencement

Meeting date: 2 December 2025

Gillian Martin

If there are pressures on particular public bodies in dealing with existing laws, they can of course come to me and explain what that pressure is and what they need.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Commencement

Meeting date: 2 December 2025

Gillian Martin

Obviously, I would listen to anybody who has a different proposal on reporting to see whether the Government would support that. I do not agree with the reporting requirement in section 10 as it is—I think that it is disproportionate. I do not think that it is in line with the financial memorandum, and I am not entirely sure what it adds.

I am always very aware of capacity and resources, which Sarah Boyack has just been talking about. That relates to the Government and the civil service. We are putting more burdens on the civil service to create reports that might not do anything or have much in them. That is capacity that I am taking away from something that does have a purpose. That would probably be my bar for that. What is it adding? What is the report doing? Is it necessary? Is it proportionate? What is it adding? Is it worth the time that it takes for the civil service to produce the report? That is something that we all have to think about whenever we ask for reporting provisions in any bill.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Commencement

Meeting date: 2 December 2025

Gillian Martin

If you want to put that in an amendment, I would be happy to look at it.

Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]

Commencement

Meeting date: 2 December 2025

Gillian Martin

I think that you are talking about emotion here, not legislation. I understand why you put that question to me. However, if a Government bill or a member’s bill does not progress beyond stage 1, the committee and the Parliament will have their reasons why that is the case. If the bill progresses, it must be fit for purpose and address a lot of the issues that have been mentioned. It is not enough simply to say, “Oh, that sounds like a good idea.” The proposal must be workable in law and not have unintended consequences.

Let me take the emotion out of that. If Scotland is able to pass a bill that we are confident does not have unintended consequences, is workable and has the support of all the bodies and people that it affects, we will have a good bill. It is important to pass a good bill rather than simply signal support for something that has flaws in it. I hope that everyone agrees with me on that.