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All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
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Displaying 3502 contributions
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 2 December 2025
Gillian Martin
Whether serious or severe harm is caused over time or as a one-off event, the issue is the severity of the harm. My understanding of the bill is that the issue is the threshold for the harm, not whether the harm occurred over a period of time or was a one-off event. It is about the impact, regardless of whether there was a series of events with a long-term effect or a one-off event.
10:00
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 2 December 2025
Gillian Martin
May I turn to Charles Stuart Roper on that? I believe that the issue is the extent of the harm—its significance—but my officials will correct me if I am wrong.
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 2 December 2025
Gillian Martin
There is a question of whether a figure is appropriate at all. You have just pointed to some of the difficulties in this regard: we do not know what the nature of the offence is, so we do not know how long it would take to recover from a particular event or how you could measure it. Members might have ideas for amendments at stage 2 or questions for Ms Lennon, but you have pointed out a particular difficulty. For the Government, it is about the impact and the severity of the harm, not the duration of the event.
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 2 December 2025
Gillian Martin
Bear in mind that, at the moment, we are simply airing the idea. We have not decided what our approach will be.
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 2 December 2025
Gillian Martin
Negligence was mentioned there. Am I right?
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 2 December 2025
Gillian Martin
Right. It goes above negligence, does it not? That goes back to some of the terminology. Ecocide means
“unlawful or wanton acts committed with knowledge that there is a substantial likelihood of severe and either widespread or long-term damage”.
That is the definition that is set out by the expert panel on the definition of ecocide. The definition also says:
“‘Wanton’ means with reckless disregard for damage, clearly in excess in relation to social and economic benefits anticipated. ‘Severe’ means damage which involves very serious adverse changes”.
I do not know how negligence fits into that. How would you prove that negligence was wanton? That is the issue here. Negligence can be wanton and reckless, but does it suggest a knowledge that what you are doing is causing harm?
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 2 December 2025
Gillian Martin
They would be working under the direction of the organisation, so I would not see any difference in that regard. Again, David Murdoch has the letter of the law, but an individual could be contracted to do something that causes wilful, wanton harm. The bill provides for the case where someone is
“acting as the employee or agent of another”.
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 2 December 2025
Gillian Martin
Wilful.
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 2 December 2025
Gillian Martin
I think that you would have to prove that that company went rogue, so to speak, which I suppose is what you are describing. You would have to prove that a contractor was doing that off its own bat, without the instruction of the contracting company. Who is responsible for the offence needs to be provable.
Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee [Draft]
Meeting date: 2 December 2025
Gillian Martin
We feel satisfied that that is covered in the bill.