Seòmar agus comataidhean

That reflects the scale of the challenge that we are trying to respond to. We have to respond to it on the basis of all of the constraints on public finance that I have referred to. That is a challenge in terms of not just revenue budgets but capital allocation. What I have asked for, and what I have discharged SFC to come back to me and lay out, is a plan to respond to some of those challenges. What are the priorities for the coming period? I know that the committee spoke to the SFC about that. The SFC will take that forward and will make a series of recommendations to me, and it will be incumbent on the Government to consider them.

I recognise the scale of the challenge. It is not something that I am pretending is not there. There are various reasons why it exists. The primary one, by my estimation, is that we have a series of buildings that were built around the same time and, as a result of that, are maturing at the same time. I go back to the point that I made in response to Mr Marra. We have a track record of investing in the college estate. I have already laid out our commitment to what Mr Marra rightly referred to as one project. I was not shying away from its being one project, but it is one very important project, and it is a serious financial commitment from the Scottish Government to continue to invest in and improve the college estate in Scotland. However, I am looking forward to the SFC informing us how we should respond to the significant challenges ahead of us, and we will then need to consider how to respond to its recommendations.

That is something that colleges themselves would have to speak to and justify. We do not direct or dictate. We are not involved in the process of pay settlements in the college sector. I think that it is right, though—you will see this reflected in our own public sector pay policy—that, particularly where we are dealing with constraint in public finances, the people who are at the bottom of the salary scale should be prioritised ahead of those at the top of the scale, if I can put it in that way.

There is a role for us to play in encouraging constructive engagement by both management and unions. I do that, and I am committed to continuing to do that. From my own position, I certainly perceive positive engagement with both. I hope that it is felt to be trying to demonstrate some form of leadership that I engage with both parties on a positive basis to urge them to come together to negotiate in a similar vein.

I cannot drive or determine what the relationships between those parties might be. All I can do is engage with them on that basis, to urge them to have dialogue on a basis of respect and of trying to come together to resolve some of the undoubted challenges that exist, and, where there are differences of opinion, to try to bridge them.

The first point is a fairly fundamental one that I have to respond to. I am not suggesting that these matters have not been discussed in the round with Universities Scotland; of course, they have been. I was referring to the very specific point that was made in the letter that you have quoted. I am more than willing to pick up on that point with Universities Scotland.

On Mr Kerr’s specific point about that particular market and that particular cohort of students, I guess that that would be reflected in the answer that I have already given, in terms of how we work with the sector to enable it to be resilient to any particular shock that may come. However, let us not talk up the prospect of a shock in the first instance; rather, let us ensure that the sector can be resilient to that possibility.

On the latter point, about Confucius institutes, I have no direct control or say in the relationship that any individual institution might have with such organisations—that is for the universities to account for. What I can say is that the Higher Education Governance (Scotland) Act 2016 is very clear about what should be undertaken in relation to academic freedoms in our institutions, and I expect that to be taken very seriously.

On your first point, I was not suggesting that there has been no impact. If I picked up Mr Marra’s point correctly, I was referring to the fact that there are particular markets and that a number of students are attracted to Scotland. That has not been substantially disrupted by the events of this year.

Clearly, in common with every sector—which adds to the budget pressures that we face—there has been an impact resulting from the wider geopolitical situation that we have seen this year.

Mr Kerr made a point on behalf of Universities Scotland. I am more than willing to get into that with Universities Scotland and to look at the detail. We have not done that so far, and Universities Scotland has not come to me to say how that might manifest itself. I would be interested in understanding how it would negatively impact the educational experience. I have certainly not perceived that having international students come to Scotland has had any particularly negative impact.

If there is an issue with potential impacts on the sector caused by other international events, I go back to the answer that I just gave Mr Marra, which is that we need to take account of that in the international education strategy that we have committed to taking forward.

First, I should say that Mr Doris and I did not plan that question—I was not teeing it up for him; it is a mere coincidence.

The arrangements to which Mr Doris refers are of fairly long standing and reflect the fact that provision in different environments does not necessarily look precisely the same. Some of the overheads in Scotland’s universities might not be reflected in the same way in some of Scotland’s colleges. For example, a greater range of lecturers and tutors might be involved in the experience of a university student relative to that of a college student. We see some of the same interactions in terms of funding per head for school pupils as well. The situation is driven by a lot of those factors.

There is a legitimate question with regard to whether we have got the balance right, and we will always be willing to consider these things. However, that is the background to what effectively drives those differences.

On the latter point, we have seen progress in the participation rate for some of those groups. That is welcome and it is down to the fact that our regionalisation processes enables colleges to be more flexible and responsive. That is an important part of what we seek to do.

In effect, the answer is the same as the one that I just gave to Mr Marra. Getting people through the door is only one part of the equation. There is more to be done on thinking through how we can better support people to ensure that they can complete their journeys through college. That remains the subject of discussion with the sector.

Certainly, the evidence that was given to the committee by the student representatives who came to speak with you was that the ability for the student voice to be heard in the college environment is real. I know that you spoke with Micole Cochrane from West Lothian College Student Association, who talked about that and said that students have the ability to interact. Al Wilson at Edinburgh College Students Association said the same. Amy Monks from Dundee and Angus College Students Association talked about the ability to influence service design methodology. The organisation of student associations was a positive consequence of regionalisation. Many of the pre-existing, smaller colleges did not have that infrastructure at all.

I expect every college to ensure that the student voice is heard and to reflect on how the student body is constituted, to ensure that every element of it is heard. That goes back to my earlier point about whom Scotland’s colleges are supporting. In 2020-21, more than a fifth of learning hours were delivered to students with a declared disability. That is a substantial proportion of the student body. Their voices should, of course, be heard, and, if I had any suggestions that they were not being heard, I would have no hesitation in picking up that issue.

I cannot sit here and say that. What I can tell you is—

My ambition is to do it as soon as possible, to resolve some of the issues that have been raised—by Mr Doris, primarily, and by Mr Marra before for him, and now by you, Mr Kerr. I recognise that we can improve these things, and I am committed to doing that. We will look at it.