Seòmar agus comataidhean

I would love to be in the position of directing what the chamber does, but that is a matter for it to decide. For my part, I am more than willing to discuss not only the point that the member has rightly made about whether the budgetary situation has been properly and satisfactorily dealt with—I would say that at this stage we have a high level of confidence that that is the case—but the wider issues that I tried to address in the topical question that was asked yesterday.

There have been two cases of what the police would call moving containment, the purpose of which is not to keep people in a fixed place for a period of time but to move them somewhere else. I have discussed the issue with the police on a number of occasions, and I have been advised that that action was taken because, had they left behind the people who wanted to lock themselves on to things or to sit down, the entire demonstration would have ground to a halt behind them, with consequences for public safety. For that reason, the people in question were asked to move to one side. I am also told that, during that period, liaison officers were talking to the people in the containment area.

My latest update, which I received this morning, is that there have been more than 400 events at which people have made their feelings known, and there have been only one or two at which there have been one or two issues. There were no incidents at all at last Friday’s very big rally involving young people, and, as far as I am aware, no one has been seriously hurt during the entire conference, which is something that I am not sure can be said of previous COPs.

What I think has been masked a little bit is the extremely positive relationship that has developed between the police and many of the protest groups. Nevertheless, these are legitimate areas for consideration. The independent advisory group headed by John Scott, which includes Friends of the Earth Scotland, Aamer Anwar and a number other people, met on 5 November to discuss, I think, a complaint from Friends of the Earth Scotland among others. Because the group is independent, I am not on it, but I am told that the discussion was very constructive. The group met again yesterday, but I am still to get a read-out from that.

By and large, the event has been extremely well policed. Police Scotland has taken a very proactive approach to engaging with groups that it knew were coming to COP, and it has tried to keep that going. The arrest of Nessie aside, the Rainbow Warrior was allowed to advance much closer to the event than it had been permitted to do at previous COPs. The police did not intervene when people took part in the lock-on on George V bridge, and, to their credit, the protesters allowed one lane to be kept open for emergency vehicles. There has been a lot of accommodation. I do not think that we could have asked for much more in that regard.

It is right that any actions of the police should be scrutinised. That has happened through the independent advisory group. Another route that can be taken is that of police complaints. So far, the policing of COP has been extremely successful, but such matters should be discussed, and I would be happy to make a statement to the chamber on the subject at a future point.

Yes. I made the pretty obvious point previously that Covid has not finished with us yet, and we have to continue to take that into account in whatever we do. However, looking beyond Covid, we want to aim at the best suitable system, which is why we are having the review of community justice. I know that the committee will look at that as well. We have to acknowledge that, notwithstanding Covid, we have further to go on the issue. We have to consider how community justice is best dealt with and how it interacts with the national care service, which is important. However, it requires more investment.

Neil Rennick might want to come in on that.

I note from my recent experience at committees that there have been a number of times during the pandemic when the usual expected patterns of development for measures have been curtailed, for fairly obvious reasons. It was probably not possible, even in July, to predict what stage the pandemic would now be at, although when the powers were due to expire was predictable.

The extension of the powers is not being nodded through. I acknowledge that the consultation process was limited; however, I again emphasise that the SPS did not have to undertake it, although it was right to do so. I am also not sure that it is true that the balance was critical here. Officials might have the exact details, but some who were contacted did not respond at all while others said that they had no comment to make.

You are right to say that the issues raised were significant and probably reflect those that members will raise today; indeed, they are the obvious issues of concern. As a result, the Government did not seek to have the proposed extension nodded through. We talked to the Prison Service about it and, on balance, believed—for the reasons that I gave in my opening remarks—that allowing the powers to be extended was the right thing to do.

I understand that the extension runs to 31 March next year but, as I have pointed out, the pandemic has changed in nature and, indeed, is changing all the time. I hope that, when we see the figures today, further progress will have been made. I undertake, if the nature of the pandemic changes again—and if the committee so wishes—to come back before that date next year and further discuss the need for the powers. I am more than willing to do that. However, at this point, the Government has considered the consultation responses and believes that, on balance, this is the right way to go.

Thank you for inviting me to come along. I will be brief.

SSI 2021/289 extends the application of certain modifications that were made to the prison rules in response to the coronavirus pandemic by the Prisons and Young Offenders Institutions (Scotland) Amendment Rules 2020 (SSI 2020/122). The current amendments to the prison rules are due to expire tomorrow, and the instrument’s purpose is to extend the application of the changes until 31 March 2022 and to revoke others that are no longer considered to be required.

Given the unique operating environment of the prison setting, the Prison Service considers it necessary to retain some of the flexibility afforded by previous rule amendments that were made during the pandemic to ensure the safe running of our prisons for the pandemic’s duration. The Prison Service also considers it necessary to take steps to retain some of the flexibility afforded by previous SSIs that were introduced during the pandemic to ensure that we are prepared and able to focus on any immediate priorities that might arise.

Members will of course be aware that the threat of coronavirus to the operation of the justice system remains. As at Monday this week, there were 136 positive Covid cases spread across nine prisons in the prison estate, so vigilance is vital. I should also say that the Scottish Prison Service’s track record in this area is very good compared with the record of other jurisdictions.

The SSI seeks to retain some of the powers that were taken in response to the pandemic, which gave prison governors the flexibility to introduce precautionary and responsive measures to prevent and limit the spread of the virus and, crucially, to ensure the safety and wellbeing of those who live in, work in and visit our prisons.

Among the key powers that are being retained are powers to allow governors to suspend or restrict, if necessary, in-person visits, purposeful activity and recreation in response to local outbreaks; rule 40A and the extended timescales in rule 41, which provide governors and local national health service partners with the means to comply with Public Health Scotland and Scottish Government advice in relation to the isolation of large groups or individuals who are symptomatic or who have been in close contact with a person who is symptomatic or have been identified as a close contact of a person who is symptomatic, or who are new admissions that might present a Covid-19 risk; and the ability for governors to extend the period for which a prisoner is on home leave for up to 14 days from the normal seven days where prisoners advise that they or someone in their home has coronavirus or has developed symptoms of coronavirus.

The committee will be aware that, in advance of laying the instrument before Parliament, the SPS undertook a tailored consultation in July with stakeholders such as the Howard League, Families Outside and Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons for Scotland. In addition, an operational review determined that not all amendments to the prison rules would require to be maintained, due to the majority of the estate returning to a regular two-shift model working day in October 2021, with staff attendance patterns that better support a fuller regime model.

The majority of amendments that are revoked by the instrument are related to administrative processes and associated timescales in areas such as internal disciplinary processes and requests and complaints. The rules that are being retained are intended to remain in force until 31 March 2022 but can be revoked earlier if necessary. Consistent with the wider community, the Prison Service is opening up regimes across the estate and its priority remains to continue transitioning to a full regime in alignment with public health advice.

For clarity, the powers in question are therefore proposed as precautionary measures and will be used only if they are felt to be necessary and proportionate. They will be subject to multidisciplinary input and decision making, and will be kept under review if put in place. Senior SPS headquarters staff and governors will continue to work with the Government and NHS colleagues to ensure that the most up-to-date information available is used to inform their response and contingency planning.

Given the uncertainty that exists as we approach another winter, it is essential that the Government ensures that the Scottish Prison Service can rapidly respond to all eventualities of the pandemic, whether nationally or locally. The draft rules provide for precautionary powers that are essential to the SPS’s continuing response to the pressures that prisons face during the pandemic.

I welcome any questions that members may have.

Her Majesty’s chief inspector of prisons has the powers that are set out in statute to inspect prisons and undertake various other elements of scrutiny of prisons, which Mr Fox might want to speak to.

The Prison Service carried out a human rights assessment prior to the instrument being laid. I understand the concerns that committee members have, but I will describe the way that the system has worked over the pandemic. The governors are not tyrants—I am not suggesting that that has been suggested—and they know that the best way of managing a prison is to allow the maximum possibility for purposeful activity, such as visits. That is why they have worked hard on alternatives to visits. That tends to help to make the running of prisons easier. Sometimes, it is not in governors’ interests to restrict such activities, and they would do it only because of health needs.

The safeguards are the conversations that governors have with SPS headquarters. It is possible for legal action to be taken if a governor extends their powers. Plus, there are the inspector of prisons and the European convention on human rights.

The officials might want to speak on any further powers that the inspector of prisons has on the matter.

Yes, and the powers that we seek to revoke, rather than extend, are, in large part, to do with internal administrative and disciplinary processes. You are right in identifying the ones that we wish to extend.

That may have been a technical answer, but it is also a factually correct one. We have observed the standing orders of the Parliament. There is a role for the committees, if they wish to take earlier consideration. This is the second committee of the Parliament to consider the powers, and that is in the context of a pandemic. In addition, the Scottish Prison Service has undertaken a voluntary consultation exercise, which was not required. The SPS has done the right thing in that regard.

If the committee wanted to annul the instrument, it could do that, or that could be done through the Parliament, and the powers would continue until that process happened. I do not think that there is a material loss of benefit to the scrutiny process in that regard.

On the consultation responses, as I tried to explain in my response to the committee, we did not get permission from the consultees to publicise their responses. Work is being done to do that—although some of them are already known to members of the committee. As soon as those permissions have been granted, the responses will be published. You are right to say that that will be next month, but next month starts on Friday. I am not saying that the responses will be published on Friday, but next month starts on Friday, and they will be published as soon as it is possible to do so.

Given Jamie Greene’s previous question, I wonder whether it would be helpful to look at the information that we can provide. I get an update every week—sometimes more often—on vaccination rates for prisoners and staff, as well as on the presence of the virus. As Fulton MacGregor rightly said, that has implications for visiting. In addition, when people come directly into custody as part of the judicial process, there are processes in place to minimise transmission. As far as I am able to, I will get specific figures to you on that. In general terms, it is the same profile as the general population, so the same process is followed in relation to the age that people are when they get vaccinated. From memory, there is a higher incidence of refusals in the prison population but, again, I will get that detail to you.

It might provide further reassurance to say that governors have to act in consultation with health professionals. If a prison governor, for whatever reason, wanted to have a more stringent regime, they could not have one just because they wanted to. They can use the powers under the regulations only if a health professional says that that is required, and it is not likely that health professionals would insist on such measures.

We are dealing with a closed population. We have had a number of outbreaks and, as I said, the virus is currently in nine different prisons. When it bubbles up in a particular prison, the incident management team goes in and takes relevant measures. It is a very real threat, because the virus is able to spread more quickly than it can among the general population. The powers are being extended for the right reasons—and only those reasons. It would not be in a prison governor’s interest to use the powers for anything other than health reasons. I will get as much information as possible and write to the convener with that information for the benefit of members.

The officials have confirmed that.