Skip to main content
Loading…

Seòmar agus comataidhean

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

Criathragan Hide all filters

Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
  7. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
Select which types of business to include


Select level of detail in results

Displaying 1467 contributions

|

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

John Swinney

I have questions on part 4 of the bill in relation to the composition of juries. Will you share any issues that you believe that the committee needs to be mindful of in the consideration of the parts of the bill that relate to the change to the jury majority provisions from a simple majority to a two-thirds majority? What should the committee consider in relation to that proposal?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

John Swinney

It would be closer to £1 million, I would say.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 31 January 2024

John Swinney

In a sense, therefore, the fact that the bill is predicated on the assumption that publishing is the preserve not of institutions but of individuals gives you confidence, with regard to the research work that you have undertaken in looking at other jurisdictions, that it represents what one might describe as the strongest foundation for providing lifelong anonymity.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Thank you. That was very helpful.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Okay—we will hear from Mr Di Rollo in a second, which I look forward to.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

My question follows directly on from that point. Mr Di Rollo told us that he appears in cases in front of judges and it is an analytical experience, if I can express it that way. Is there something philosophically wrong with that concept? Sheila Webster and Mr Lenehan talked about the importance of being judged by your peers, but juries are selected from the full range of the population. On juries that are looking at sexual assault cases involving 18 and 20-year-olds, there will be a lot of 50-year-old men and 60-year-old women who, frankly, in my humble opinion, grew up in a different world from the one that we now live in. I speak as a just-about-to-be-60-year-old man—it is full disclosure here today.

I am struck by Mr Di Rollo’s earlier point that his cases are heard by a judge, which is fine. Everyone says that that is okay, so what is wrong with it in these cases?

13:00  

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

My point is that Mr Di Rollo has put on the record that he is able to stand in front of a judge and get an analytical experience and a statement of reasons, and I am asking whether there is something philosophically wrong with that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

The problem that I have with that is that, last week, we had six witnesses in front of us who had all been involved in sexual offences cases, and they would not say that that was their experience.

Let me place a quote from Lady Dorrian on the record. I thought that it was an incredibly powerful quote from her appearance before the committee on 10 January. She said:

“We have, of course, managed to bring in the changes in the way in which juries are directed and so on, but even if they were brought in rapidly, they are still being done in a piecemeal way. They are not being done in a principled way, with the underpinning of a whole court that is dedicated to trauma-informed practices.

One of the things that we said in the report was that, if we do not seize the opportunity to create the culture change from the ground up that Mr Swinney spoke about, there is every risk that, in 40 years, my successor and your successors will be in this room having the same conversation.”—[Official Report, Criminal Justice Committee, 10 January 2024; c 22-23.]

I found that to be a powerful comment because it addressed directly the argument about piecemeal change that we are wrestling with—that is what I have heard—versus a substantial departure from some of the traditional norms that Sheila Webster talked about, which can be very off-putting to individuals involved in the judicial system.

I am keen to understand the reluctance to fully absorb and incorporate the ground-up culture change that Lady Dorrian talked about. I worry that Parliament might legislate in one part of the bill for trauma-informed practice, but not see it happen in courts throughout the country.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

I will take that example. That strikes me as highly analytical. I understand that point. Mr Di Rollo has just said that, although the culture has changed a lot, it has not changed enough. It still strikes me, as a member of Parliament who is scrutinising a bill on victims, witnesses and justice reform, that there is a risk that victims—complainers—might well be subjected to conduct that, if we do not pass the bill, might not be addressed by the reforms that we might leave for the legal profession to make in a piecemeal fashion.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Mr Di Rollo?