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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
  7. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 1467 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

That analogy is fair, and I accept it, but my point was that there must also be a regulatory element, because I worry about conduct.

The profession is very exercised about all aspects of supposed interference in its regulation. I have heard that over many years. However, some people are ill served. In my humble opinion, the profession does not have the strongest foundation for its position.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Thank you.

I was interested in Professor Munro’s comment a moment ago that having juryless trials can affect the tone of a case. I am particularly interested in that point. Could you perhaps elaborate on that, Professor Munro? What particular elements of a judge-only trial could be enhanced or developed to enable proper and fair justice for all parties to be better assured than it is under our current arrangements?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Can you pause there, Mr Di Rollo? The contrast that you have just drawn for the committee—that the difference in tone and approach is in being impressionistic versus analytical—is fundamental to our consideration of what the arguments are for a single-judge trial.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Thank you. Professor Thomas, would you like to reflect on that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

Good morning. I do not know whether all the witnesses were here for the previous evidence session with the legal academics, but I want to highlight one of the points that I explored with Professor Munro. She made a remark about how judge-only trials could affect the tone of a case. I am particularly interested in that point. Does the panel believe that there is a problem with the tone of sexual crime cases in Scotland today? Maybe Mr Lenehan could start on that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 24 January 2024

John Swinney

When reading the submissions, all that I am seeing are all the reasons for not doing something. The committee must address the reforms, which, by necessity, are significant. If we take a piecemeal approach, which, if I may say so, is what the submissions seem to me to be suggesting should happen, we will be back having this conversation in 10, 20 or 30 years’ time. Do you see my dilemma?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

John Swinney

It does sound bizarre, but it is also a powerful explanation of how you did not feel central to the case, which is a point well made.

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

John Swinney

So an accountability mechanism needs to be injected into the proceedings.

This might be a question for Kate Wallace and Emma Bryson. It is clear from looking at the terms of reference of the victims commissioner that they would not be able to effect any of what we have just talked about; they might be able to comment on it, but they would not be able to effect it. Do you have any reflections on what questions that poses for the committee about what is required to make sure that the triumvirate of cultural change, legislative change and regulatory change can be delivered to make sure that we deliver the comprehensive strategic change that we all want?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

John Swinney (Perthshire North) (SNP)

Good morning and thank you for being here today. I want to follow up on one of your comments, Ellie. You described the court environment as intimidating. Would you describe it as respectful to you?

Criminal Justice Committee

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 17 January 2024

John Swinney

Thank you for that. That opens up two issues that I would like to explore. The first is the issue that you and Hannah McLaughlan have aired about what trauma-informed practice looks like in reality in the court setting. I would like you to explain, from your experience, your expectations for the future if trauma-informed practice is to be a requirement in court proceedings. Where do you believe the greatest amount of movement is needed in that respect to ensure that, in the future, victims will be in a trauma-informed environment?