The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.
All Official Reports of meetings in the Debating Chamber of the Scottish Parliament.
All Official Reports of public meetings of committees.
Displaying 133 contributions
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 4 November 2022
Nicola Sturgeon
Yes, I do.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 4 November 2022
Nicola Sturgeon
As it happens, I raised that particular issue last night, as I was reading documents in preparation for today. That was an error, but, as I think can be substantiated by looking at the committee’s website, the letter is published in full there. The letter that was sent by Transport Scotland omitted, in the way that it was formatted, a couple of paragraphs. I noticed that last night, so I am not surprised that the committee noticed it, too. I have the full letter in front of me, and the committee has the full letter, and I am happy to answer questions on the entirety of the letter.
I do not believe that there was any intention to mislead, not least because it would have been very obvious to anybody who had any knowledge of the matter. Taking all that into account, I am satisfied that that was an inadvertent formatting error, and it does not change the fact that the full information is before the committee.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 4 November 2022
Nicola Sturgeon
I would thank the convener if I could complete my point. The fact that you know that underlines the point that I am making. The full letter is on your committee’s website, and therefore the idea that, somehow, that would have pulled the wool over anybody’s eyes stretches credibility.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 4 November 2022
Nicola Sturgeon
I think that you have heard CMAL respond to that. It took procurement advice and it would not say that that was out of the ordinary as regards the procurement process. However, it is important that such issues are now properly and fully investigated by the Auditor General rather than by my coming to summary conclusions without allowing that process to be undertaken.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 4 November 2022
Nicola Sturgeon
You will have read the 20 August 2015 submission. The timing of the announcement was to do with the tender timescale. In fact, the 20 August submission talks about—I am paraphrasing rather than quoting directly from it—getting close to the point where the tenders would expire. I think that there had already been a bit of an extension. The timing of the announcement was driven entirely by the timetable of the tender process.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 4 November 2022
Nicola Sturgeon
There are two questions in there, and I will separate them. I had no awareness or knowledge that CMAL had concerns about the announcement. Obviously, I have heard the concerns that it has expressed in evidence to this committee, for example. However, I have reviewed the briefing that I had that day and, far from having a knowledge that CMAL was concerned about that, my briefing included a set of questions and answers that had been prepared by CMAL, and the list of people who were due to attend included the then chief executive of CMAL, so nothing would have given me any sense that CMAL was unhappy with any of that.
10:30On whether that was an appropriate thing to do, I have probably covered that already. On Government announcements of preferred bidders and contracts, I am not sitting here saying that that happens with every single contract, but nor would it be correct that the announcement on this contract was somehow abnormal or unusual. I have referred to how, a few months later—it was me who did this—CalMac was announced as the preferred bidder for the ferry services contract. As I said, you can very easily find examples of other Governments on these islands doing similar things. It was not in any sense abnormal to announce a preferred bidder contract.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 4 November 2022
Nicola Sturgeon
At that stage, no.
You are obviously talking about what came to the transport minister in the context of the 8 October decision about the final contract award, which is distinct from preferred bidder. As I said, I was not aware of that at that time. I am obviously now very aware of that and, as I said in my response to the convener’s questions earlier, have fully reviewed all the paperwork that was before Derek Mackay at that point.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 4 November 2022
Nicola Sturgeon
I am very familiar with it, Mr Hoy.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 4 November 2022
Nicola Sturgeon
I have seen the outcome of what I asked officials to do. I will certainly look to see whether that can be provided to the committee; I do not see why it could not.
Public Audit Committee
Meeting date: 4 November 2022
Nicola Sturgeon
I addressed that point in my opening remarks. As I have said before, I deeply regret the impact on island communities. The seriousness with which we take issues of connectivity to our islands, of which ferries are the critical part, is reflected in our overall ferries plan, in recent decisions that we have taken on the procurement of additional vessels and in our determination, notwithstanding the deep regret that we feel, to complete those ferries and ensure that all lessons are learned. That is very clear in my mind and I hope that it is clear from the Government overall.
Craig Hoy made a number of comments in his question to me. I would refute many of them, but clearly I am not able—and nor would I try—to refute the fact that this contract was not delivered in the way that we would have expected and wanted, nor has it come close to that. We can get into the issues of why that is the case. However, that does not lead inevitably to a conclusion that the procurement process was any of the ways that Craig Hoy has chosen to describe it.
Allegations have been made about the procurement process. Craig Hoy mentioned the BBC documentary. To be clear, ministers and I are not aware of impropriety in the procurement process. However, the allegations in the BBC “Disclosure” programme are serious and need to be properly investigated. When those allegations were reported, I asked the permanent secretary to proactively contact the Auditor General. Of course, the Auditor General has since said that he is looking at those allegations.
I can go through my understanding of each of them. The term “cheat sheet” that Craig Hoy used relates, I think, to the statement of operational and technical requirements that it has been alleged that Ferguson’s had. CMAL has been very clear that, to the best of its knowledge, it did not come from CMAL. In fact, I do not even think that the BBC alleged that; the BBC was clear in its programme that some design consultant that Ferguson’s commissioned was probably the source of it.
There are serious issues here. However, knowing how serious this committee is, I hope that it will not prejudge its outcome and that it looks at all of those things. The experience with the contract is clearly not acceptable, but it is important, if we are to genuinely learn lessons, that we do not come to summary judgments in the way that Craig Hoy’s question would suggest. Instead, we need to go through all these things rigorously and systematically and try, as best we can, to get to where the failings actually were, in order that we can learn the right lessons.
11:00