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Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
  7. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 1797 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 30 September 2025

Maggie Chapman

Good morning to the panel. Thank you very much for joining us and for your contributions so far.

It is quite clear from what Caitlin Fitzgerald has said and from Rachel Fox’s comments that there is a need to disaggregate RO and RME. We have heard the same from other witnesses this morning, and we will take that into our deliberations.

I have also quite clearly heard frustration—if I can put it like that—that the bill is perhaps a missed opportunity to do something not necessarily grander but much more complete on the rights of the child. I suppose that that is where I want to focus my first question. Articles 12 and 14 of the UNCRC clearly speak of the right to be heard and the freedoms of expression, conscience, thought and religion. The bill is perhaps intended to fulfil some of those rights, although perhaps not in the way that we might wish, with a stand-alone act that would be UNCRC compliant.

A question that was posed back to us earlier this morning was about a balance—or a tension—between the parent’s rights as the primary educator of their children to make those choices for them, and the UNCRC articles that I have mentioned. How do you balance those rights? Angela O’Hagan said that what we are talking about is the child’s right to religious expression, freedom of religion and so on, but do you see a way through any potential conflicts that schools would have to navigate?

Angela, I will come to you first.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 30 September 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thanks, Angela. That is really helpful. Rachel, I know that you want to comment, and I am happy to bring you in.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 30 September 2025

Maggie Chapman

Are there things that we can do in legislation to support those conversations and to prevent the stigmatising or othering, or the singling out, of individuals, whether those are the children or the parents?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 30 September 2025

Maggie Chapman

I think that we all ruminate on that in the committee. Do any other witnesses want to comment on those rights questions?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 30 September 2025

Maggie Chapman

That fundamental has to be our starting point.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 30 September 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thank you. I will leave it there, convener.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 30 September 2025

Maggie Chapman

That is actually my next question. We know that the UN’s Committee on the Rights of the Child has twice in the past seven or eight years strongly recommended that we have an opt-out option. What are your thoughts on that?

Claire Benton-Evans, you have made it very clear that there should be an opt-in and an opt-out. Do you want to say anything else about that?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 30 September 2025

Maggie Chapman

And all the safety issues.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 30 September 2025

Maggie Chapman

Good morning, and thank you for joining us. You may have heard, in the earlier evidence session, quite a lot of discussion about the potential conflict between parents’ rights as primary educators of their children and children’s rights to free expression of their spiritual or religious development in ways that suit them.

The Scottish Government’s view of the bill is that the new process would better support UNCRC articles 12 and 14 on the right to be heard and on freedom of thought, conscience and religion. How do you see that intention to give those rights legitimacy in our laws, alongside the potential conflict with parents’ rights to be primary educators?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 30 September 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thanks very much. My final question perhaps follows on from some of Pam Gosal’s questions about consistency and the issues across the board. I hear the views about whether or not we should have RO but, given that we do, how best can headteachers, schools, local authorities and others who are having the high-level conversations about it ensure consistency, so that—as you were saying, Fraser—the principles of inclusion and of non-stigmatising and non-othering processes are universally understood? How would you go about doing that?