Seòmar agus comataidhean

On the banning of trail hunting?

I should probably go away and think about that, but my instinctive response is that I would not want to do anything that stopped the transplanting of animals. I would not want to say that they must be killed at the point of flushing if, on occasion, they can be netted and moved.

That is understood.

To recap, the bill contains two offences: to hunt a mammal with a dog and to knowingly permit someone to hunt a mammal with a dog. However, there are exceptions to that, as Mercedes Villalba said.

The first exception is the management of wild mammals above ground. That will require two dogs, which will have to be under control, and the person will have to take reasonable steps to ensure that the dogs do not join others. What is envisaged with those provisions is farmers, land managers and others having to undertake control to protect lambs, poultry and ground-nesting birds, for example. Basically, that refers to the use of dogs above ground.

The second exception relates to the hunting of wild mammals below ground. I know that there has been extensive discussion about that and that the committee has heard very opposing views on it. That exception provides for the use of one dog that is under control, with the permission of the landowner. That is about controlling species such as foxes and mink underground.

There is also an exception for game shooting, deer stalking and falconry, which involves using a dog to, for example, flush a wild animal to be killed by the falcon or, as I understand it, be shot and fed to the falcon.

The fourth exception is for environmental benefit. That allows for projects to tackle invasive non-native species, for example. There have been a couple of examples of that, such as the projects to tackle stoats on Orkney and hedgehogs on Uist.

There are a few circumstances in which we envisage that dogs may be used in the pursuit of different activities, and those are laid out in exceptions in the bill.

I want to accommodate what I can. What time do you think we might finish?

I am sorry, but I am not sure what you mean. I am pursuing all the reasons for which a dog may be used. I come to the issue from the basis that we cannot allow an animal in any of those circumstances to be chased and killed. That is where the animal welfare concern is. As long as we seek to avoid that, whether the dogs are used to kill a fox, protect lambs or help to eradicate a non-native species, the welfare element lies in not allowing the chasing and the killing.

Your last point touches on the issue that, if there were not differences in how long people can apply for the licence for and the terms thereof, the difference would be theoretical. However, where the terms exist, I see that people might say, “Should I apply under the protection of livestock clause or under the environmental protection clause?”.

The terms of the licensing scheme are still to be developed, so it is difficult for me to give concrete responses to that. However, our purpose has been to reflect the ways in which people need to call on the use of dogs in land management throughout Scotland. Finding that there is a fox present in fields—and having to call on support for that—is a different matter from a large-scale environmental project about an invasive non-native species. We are not deliberately pursuing the idea that protection of livestock is not an environmental issue, because it is an environmental issue. There is a theoretical distinction—

Yes, and I take on board what the Law Society of Scotland says. However, that is a pretty standard provision throughout not only wildlife legislation but legislation generally and would allow us to make amendments should that be needed without having to go through primary legislation again. Cost recovery is an example of where we might want to make such changes. Indeed, if any deficiencies arose, that provision would allow us to make changes without having to introduce another bill, in contrast to the 2002 act. It is not an overstretch; it is a standard part of drafting.

Twenty per cent is the figure that I recall, convener, but I will certainly check it.

This comes back to the bones of the licensing scheme, as set out in the bill. Explicit reference is made to

“the minimum number of dogs”;

thereafter, that issue will be for NatureScot’s experts to determine—I am, of course, a politician, not an expert—according to the circumstances in front of them, which will include the size of the farm, the size of the fields, the number of sheep, the size of the environmental project and the rate of spread of the invasive non-native species. All those things will have to be taken into account. Therefore, I could not possibly determine what the minimum number of dogs would be in the circumstances.

My preconception is that the minimum number should be used to fulfil what is needed across the space of land, depending on its size and the issue at hand. I am not able to say what that number would be in the multitude of possible scenarios. The minimum number should be used to do the job in hand.